Krishna Seva

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Most of the people in this group are here to know something, to share something. Most of the topics discussed so far is moreover about rituals or about certain scriptures and their importance. Some of us are interested in knowing why we perform certain rituals (rituals could also be any activity related Thakorji) and some are interested in knowing how we perform.

Yet, I am interested in something else. There are lots of questions thats popping in my head. These has nothing to do with any rituals and hence I have started this new topic where we all can post any relavant or irrelevant questions and answers which is free from any marg. But its answer can come from any scripture or marg.

I believe people in this forum will share their own ideas to the questions we will post in this topic. More with some questions in a few....
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Prashant]

Ok, I am starting off with a very weird question. Why should one not be jealous?

Every religion tells us not to be jealous. But have you ever thought that jealousy is so useful. World is progressing because people are jealous. Technology is advancing because one good thing leads to another due to jealousy.

Right from childhood a child is taught to stand no 1 in the class. It doesn't matter how much percentage he scores. If he stands first with 60% its ok but if stands second with 80% its wrong. He starts envying the person who comes first, works hard and may be scores 90% next time.

So if jealousy can lead to progress, why should one not be jealous????
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Pushtidas]

Jai Shree Krishna

Thanks Prashantji,

I personally think that a harmless jealousy is postive one and it becomes a commodity which progressively enhance the life and human nature. A competition is healthy for economy.

Lets see what response we get on this.

Good luck.
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Dasa nu das
Pushtidas

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

What a fascinating topic.

Well my personal take is that the preaching of not being a jealous person, lies within preaching to become a selfless person. When looking at any marg from a stereotypical perspective, one notes that devoted people tend preach selflessness.

I believe this is due to the shared perspective and goal to make life and human nature better than it is. As if to claim that human nature is therefore fallible and needs to be corrected. Which then stems the question; Is human nature fallible because of such emotions as jealousy?? Its is described to be one of the seven sins.

However as Pushtidasji has highlighted competition can be healthy. And I certainly agree that trying to better ones self is not a negative, rather a commodity. Attempting to reach ones full potential allows ones self to better.

But where does one draw the line from healthy competition, to unhealthy competitive goals. For example, attempting to find a good school for ones children has become a race of the determined Parents. So much so that families move homes and change religions in order to comply with what society states is "The Best" institution to be educated in.

As mentioned previously, I think the underlying issue is on the constant attempt of humans to insisting that they are fallible in essence and to better this fallible nature. This I believe stems from such tales of 'the fall of man'. One example of such a tale would be of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit.

However, this I disagree with! I believe that the human essence at its core is not fallible; I believe that character traits such as jealousy are not the sin of the world, nor the down fall. And I believe this because when I refer to my own religious knowledge and interpretations I find that people of ALL and MANY natures have and are close to Purnpurshotam, Thakorji. I believe that without His guidance ones atman, soul forgets their true nature and each of their qualities is magnified in such a way that it can become crude, especially when not in His remembrance. Traits such as jealousy can be reinterpreted as intense longing, e.g. the Gopis for Krsna. There are many examples of men, women and children who are hugely different in character yet are close to God and they may appear to have bad or fallible characteristics, however when this character is redirected to Lord, they are as they are supposed to be, and they are as Shree Krsna likes them.

To conclude I believe that the essence of each human is not fallible and that it is a common misconception in various religions that it is. Rather the essence of each soul, is mutated and can some what become crude in its distance from God. Therefore such character traits as jealousy are not wrong in their essence. Again preaching that they are suppresses the individual, attempting to put them into a box of belonging, when rather a relationship with lord is individual and ALWAYS varied in parameters.
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Nital]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Very interesting - certainly got me thinking! I beleive that jelousy is a negative emotion, yes it may be the cause for improvements in society but this doesn't mean it's right. In the material world, the more we get, the more we want. Therefore, I personally beleive that jelousy can make one greedy. In the lokik world, one should be happy with what they have, Furhtermore, i think that there can also sometimes be a fine line between jelousy and striving to have/be the best, so for example, Prashantiji, the child in class that you mentioned, is it that the parents simply want their child to be the best or is that there is jelousy over another child getting a higher mark?
However, my tone changes when we look at the alokik side...here a slight element of jelousy can be positive as this can enhance your seva, manorath, etc for Thakorji!

JSK

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Thank you Pushtidasji, Palnaji and Nitalji for your efforts to write down your thoughts on this topic. Do not forget that your answers will give rise to new questions For eg Nitalji, when you talk about negative emotions my brain struck with the new question, what is negative and postivie emotions? Don't worry I will hold off with my questions until we get some more replies.

Guys, Pushtidasji wrote earlier that we have quite a good number of members and far more visitors in this forum. But unfortunately we haven't got as many posts and replies yet. Possibly not many people know about Pushtimarg so they don't write but they enjoy reading what's being written by few knowledgable members.

But this topic does not necessarily require any scripture knowledge or knowledge about God or any Marg. The topic "Why should we not be jealous" is relevant to each and every one. Jealousy is the trait that we live with. So can we spend some time thinking about this and try to share our thoughts.

It's good to read. But when you write your thoughts out it crystalises your thinking process. If further solidifies your knowledge.

This reminds me of old saying "One who asks question remains fool for few moments (until you find an answer) but one who doesn't ask remains fool for life time."
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Prashant]

Jealousy - Let us first try to see what is the dictionary meaning of the word jealous.
Jealous - 1)hostile toward a rival or one believed to enjoy an advantage
2) Feeling resentment because of another's success, advantage etc

It is very important that we ask ourself a question - Why does one develop hostile feeling towards others and when does this happen. Let us think a bit in this direction.

If Lakshmi Mittal's wealth is increased would you feel jealous about him or would you be proud of him? I am prettly sure most of us would feel proud. Why? There are 2 main reasons - 1) He is an Indian (There is something common in us). 2) His increase in wealth has nothing to do with us because he is not in the same league as us.

Have you ever observed that in our friend circle we would always help a friend who is struggling, we would be proud of a friend who is very successful but we would be jealous of a friend who is in direct competition with us, who is of the same stature as us. Why? One who is struggling is no threat to us, one who is very successful makes us feel proud but one who is in our league creates an ego problem for us. Perhaps our ego always wants to be at the top in our league, amongst the people of our own stature. Our ego never likes some one in our competetion getting ahead of us or rather does not like to be lagged behind. So at a micro level is it ok to say that ego is the main cause behind jealousy?

When our rival or any one in our league gets any sort of advantage, we (our ego) fear of being lagged behind. We fear not to be at the top. As a result there is a hostile feeling towards that person which we describe as jealousy.

At macro level if we take constructive steps to make our self alert and work hard to get ahead of everyone we see the progress. But only if we take constructive step. It is hard to see people taking constructive step. Most of the time we see people taking any route to be ahead of league. In many cases we have seen division in the party, in companies or even in sampradays for power struggle. And this power struggle is a direct result of ego and jealousy.

And what happens at micro level? if we succeed, our ego is boosted and if we fail, frustration penetrates within us.

Does this make any sense? Comments / Feedback are welcome.
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Sital]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Prasantji the above narration clearly demonstrates how we in this material world identify ourselves, with this body, status, and wealth. We forget our soul, which is our real identification.

I believe that in Pusthimarg jealousy can be positive if the motive is spiritual and one just wants the best for their Thakorji

I suppose this applies to all emotion when diverted towards Thakorji’s happiness, can be wonderful and increase bhakti.

JSK
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Madhurkomalkant padavali namami
Sital

[Prashant]

If you all agree with what I said earlier that jealousy is caused due to ego than even if we take constructive step, at micro level we are solidifying our ego.

I am using this word "ego" at couple of places. I guess its time to discuss - What is ego, perhaps we know that, but second important part, what does our shastra say about it? Is it possible to be free from ego?
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[Prashant]

It's been a long time and no reply yet for the above question. Either every one is very busy or the question is not that important to discuss. In any case, this question will be open for anyone who stumble upon. For all the silence reader, if you are too shy to write here its OK, but do question yourself and try to find its answer.

Moving forward, I would like to post another question.

Alas, God is biased. I can elaborate further and narrow down the statement but would like to keep it open for you to interpret it any how.

Do you agree/disagree? Why?

Let the fun begin...........
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Is God biased?... I must confess that it is a mindful question but my initial reaction was of bafflement.

Again I feel the question can be expanded upon. Are we here referring to the polytheistic figure of God head (more than 1 God, whatever the religious tradition) or are we making specific reference to "Brahman/God/The all mighty/Source of all/Allah(translates as God)"??

As I am sure many are aware; that within the Hindu tradition there is the belief that different religious figures were created for different types of souls. Also different religious figures were created and were designated with certain responsibilities. For example Brhamaji who is apart of the trinity of Vishnu and Shivji, was designated the duty of creator.

However there is a common belief that beyond these figures is the source of everything. That which we call “Brahman” unknown in that figure but which Pushtimarg Vaishnavs associate to be the one and only Shree Krishna. Other religious traditions would name so differently. (Allah, The Father, Lord etc)

So by deduction of this knowledge I feel that Brahman in essence, however unknown to us or whatever name one wishes to associate with Brahman is unbiased!
Furthermore I believe that demi Gods and deities from various traditions are biased as their purpose and creation is to be so!

This is only my personal deduction on the topic I hope it may shed some light on the topic. My deduction is biased as the forum allowes me to be so. If discussing this topic in a lecture I would not use the term "Brahman" but say an unknown source of all. How can the source of all be biased when it is ALL His anyway? To what is he biased against, Himself?

Any thoughts Prashantji?
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Thank you Palnaji for your input. I had purposefully put the statement in a broad sense to allow more members to jump in based on what they perceive this statement to be.

Let me tell you what was going on in my mind at the time I made this statement. It was tuesday morning. I was having shower and thinking on few things as I usually do. I suddenly jumped out of my bath tub shouting Eureka Eureka!. Sorry I am not Archimedes, so I didn't do that but I just uttered the word - Alas, God is biased. I went to my office and the first thing I did - open up KS and thought of sharing this with you all and get your view on that.

The word pushti in pushtimarg means grace and grace means favor. We say without god's grace we cannot follow this marg. It is because of his grace that we are following this marg. Then the question arises how does god bestow his grace to individual jeev. Well, thats based on karma, Right? So there must be a set of rules which states which karma should get what fruit or end result. If it's purely based on karma than god is simply following the rules he has set and there is no grace. And if there is any grace that means he is biased.

For eg, I set up a sport called xyz or let me call it cricket. In that sport I lay out the rules and let people play the game. I have a fixed rule on team selection, I have strict rule for fouls and strict rule on who gets reward at the end of the game. Per my rule top 11 playing people will be selected in the game. And the one who performs best will be rewarded. Now is that my grace or it's the rule. Well, if I reward a non deserving person than that's a favor or grace. And if I reward a deserving peron than that's following the rules. Even if you call it as grace than that grace is not for a particular person or to a person belonging to particular sect or religion, it is across the board, per set of rules.

So if we say that we (pushtimargiya) have special grace from god than god must be biased.
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Life can be lived in several ways but the quality of your life depends on the things to which you give priority

- Prashant

[palna]

Jai Shree Krishna,

Interesting deductions Prashantji. Alas they also make sense.

However I must confess that once again I feel you are limiting God in His ability.

The law of karma for the biased Hindu is undeniably existent. And as you demonstrated this is all a leela (game). But let one not forget that He is not only the designer of the blue print, the architect, the builder and the rule maker but is also apart of each inactive and active object in the game. I am speaking here from a biased perspective. Therefore His will to change factors in the game are not bonded by the very rules he created. And to imply so seems to lead to a logical contradiction.
Immanuel Kant approaches issues of moral law from a deontological perspective. Kant advices ones actions should derive from moral maxims. Maxims are principles.

An example to illustrate how one would go about creating a maxim and then how it becomes a logical contradiction is one of promises. E.g

‘I will break promises when the promise is depriving me of something
else.’

One must then ask if this principle can be applied rationally everywhere and everyone could act upon it. Kant would state this is wrong because if everyone everywhere did break promises then the principle of promises would break down in itself; therefore it is a logical contradiction.

Similarly to suggest the founder, creator, builder and player is restricted by the very boundaries he creates also seems to be a logical contradiction. For how can the boundless be bound by His own self??

As for those who follow Pushti(grace) marg(path) yes they do consider themselves lucky, and in this realisation they feel humble. However this does not deny the importance of any other religious tradition, text or creed. No where in vedic text does it state that Allah does not exist, that Christ was not born, in fact Gautam Buddha’s birth was predicted.

Therefore there is no bias nature in Gods will as he created different figures for different souls and values each soul intrinsically. Whether the soul has a belief in God or not, it is ultimately His soul and is valued in its own individual nature. Any person belonging to any religious tradition feels that they are at a point of advantage belonging to that tradition. However is this so wrong? Would it not be also illogical to not be biased in your own beliefs?

Again I am here speaking of the all powerful unknown source. The difference being that I name this being “Thakorji”. Where as some name so differently and others don’t name at all.

Am enjoying the topic Prashantji, Any thoughts?? I have meant no offence in my postings and hope you appreciate the debate, as i do.
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Prem Bandhan Ajab Gajab, Brahmaganth sami aa ganth, na tutai na chutai

Palna na Koti Koti Jai Shree Krishna

[Prashant]

Jai Shree Krishna,
Without any second thought I am enjoying this conversation, Palnaji. I appreciate your expression of thoughts and I would encourage every one else to do so without thinking if it would offend the opposite person or not. I guess we all are matured enough to understand the difference between expressing one's opinion and an act of sabotage. So please continue expressing your thoughts. This, I believe, will lead to good understanding of the overall picture of God and other mysteries . What you say?

[Prashant]

Sorry, I forgot to address this: