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gopal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Jai ShriGokulesh,
Pushtidasji ur very 1st question related to the Quality of Shriguru that He should be Krishnaseva pravan, dambhaadi rahit, shribhagwat tatgya and also Naram- which implies to Male only.


Now for the next question that How can we recognise the jeev is a pushtijeev???

Pushtijeev can only be recognised by the Vallabhkul balaks only. IN vaartas we find that many jeevs were not given brahmasambandh diksha, and only giving Astakshar mantra diksha by saying them, that u will have to make sang of bhagwadiyas and there will be no badhaak. Which purely prooves that every jeev is not adhikaari of brahmasambandh. Which we can very clearly understand from the tika of ShriPurushottamji on the Siddhant Rahashya granth, which is very delicately been posted by pushtidasji. SHripurushottam charan gives aagyna that Balaks (vallabhkul balaks) can give brahmasambandh diksha in 3 circumstances to the jeev, 1st when the jeev is having that dhradh bijbhaav, 2nd when jeev is getting bij bhaav enhanced as his family is a pushtijeev, and 3rd due to satsang if some jeev's bij bhaav gets enhanced .......


Now a days we find that in newspapers advertisements r given that those jeevs wanted to take brahmasambandh diksha may enroll their name at ....... haveli , etc. So this way the jeev cannot be recognised.

And regarding sunitaben's point that Vallabhkul balaks not giving brahmasambandh... Yes, it is very fact taht each and every jeev is not adhikaari of brahmasambandh. And moreover i will say with open heart that My ShriGurucharan Pujyacharan Gurudev Chaturthpeethadhishwar Goswamey ShriDevkinandanacharyashri-ShriSureshbavashri (Shrimad Gokul) don't give brahmasambandh to each and every jeev comming forward for initiation. It is his counteract. And he is much knowledged regarding the Philosophy of Pushtimarg of ShriMahaprabhuji. And is following strictly the orders comming from the Granths described the Mool AAcharyas.
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Nirupa
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Pushtidasji thank you for the wonderful explanation of a very interesting and thought provking subject. In the last posting you said…..

Quote:
The ardent Pushti soul's sins are automatically repented by the Diksha but there are many souls who do not achieve this state, even after taking Brahmasambandh


Following questions come to mind:-

(1) why ONLY certain Pushti soul’s sins are automatically repented and not for ALL Pushti souls, after taking Brahmasambandh?

(2) Does it mean that those pushti souls whose sins are automatically repented achieve Param Falam easily and quickly compare to the souls whose sins are not automatically repented (after doing Thakorji’s seva and following pushti sidhant)?
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palna
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna,
Gopalji a very interesting posting! In reference to the varta's (those of which teach us today) There are many examples of bhavik vaishnavs recognising Pushti souls. This may be that they feel an uncontolable need to see them, do satsang with them to have vaishnav love towards them etc... So this demonstrates that a vaishnav can recognise another devi jeev. After all they are all connected in Kunj, all come from thakorji and whether they knoe it or not, they have the capability and love to do Thakorji's seva. In conclusion i was under the impression the bhavik vaishnavs can recognise other devi jeevs and not only Vallabkul.
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Sital
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Agreed with Palnaji, if we start looking into the varta’s one can see that many bhavik vaishnavs were able to recognise daivi souls. For example if you look at the varta; The prostitutes daughter, there the vaishnav was immediately able to recognise the girl as a daivi jeev, whereas his fellow vaishnav didn’t and had a misconception of the whole scenario. Yes, the vaishnav didn't give Brahmasaband to her as it was given by Shree Gusainji because Brahmasaband can only be given by a Vallabh Kul Balak which, Pusthidasji has depicted very well in his postings.

From reading the varta's I believe that a pusthi jeev can be recognised by Guru and Tadrushi vaishnavs. Vaishnavs had received this grace from Hari and Guru as they were following Mahaprabuji and Shree Gusainji teaching, and had unconditional love and devotion towards Thakorji.

I think one can recognise a pusthi jeev by measuring his or her interest in the path or, as Palnaji has said that when an ardent vaishnav meets a non vaishnav and they find some sort of a connection. Then they will be able to recognise that there is something more to this and by doing satsang, the vaishnav will discover that non-vaishnav to be a Pusthi jeev and the non-vaishnav will realise he/she belongs to the Path of Grace.

We have seen many examples in the varta’s of souls who were not following the path of Grace being fascinated and pulled into the Path when having the association of Bhakta’s and there are also many examples of souls being attracted into the path by doing darshan of Shree Mahaprabuji and Shree Gusainji.

Then there is the Tadrusi Vaishnav’s who can just recognise the soul by a quick glance.

These are just a few thoughts please feel free to correct them at any time
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Thanx Sitalji, Palnaji and Gopalbhai...Lots to think about!

Nirupaji those are very interesting questions as contemplating on the same topics in the past has also left me wondering too if Thakorji lets sins be forgiven on a basis of well, seems like favouritism!

Well I concluded that I was wrong..... If God isnt fair then who is, and who can expect to be! Well Thakorji is fair and he is Param Dayalu after all! I believe that the answer to your first question would be that the soul who has been forgiven is because they're soul is at the right stage, time and place to to be forgiven at their Brahmsambandh. Whereas the other soul perhaps needed to learn and understand something before being forgiven despite their Brahmsamband. Thakorji Loves everyone for different reasons. All souls are given opportunities to better themselves and reach the stage of Pushti Param Fal, an example of this is through the Yamunastakam, "Tanunavatvametavata" we are given the opportunity to improve our spiritual body to serve Krishna through the grace of Shree Yamna Maiya. I guess it boils down to our spiritual desires and material desires. I hope i've made sense. I'm sure a more intelligent Vaishnav can expand or give a better explanation.
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Pushtidas
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Thank you Gopal bhai, I agree with you that Vallabhkul balak can recognise the devi Jiva. I also agree with Sitalji that some of the vaishnavs, specially, the Tadrushi vaishnavs also can recognise the devi-Jiva. But Gopal bhai you contradict by saying that the newspaper carry an advert for certain haveli to give Brahmasambandh Diksha. Well I am not in favour of the advert, but do not think that when people go to the haveli after reading the advert and ask for Diksha, will not Balak recognise the Devi-Jive then? I think they would.

I also said to Sunitaji's post that it is Vallabh Balak's prerogative to give the Diksha as he does not constitute that person as worthy or Adhikari Jiva. So I did say that Shree Vallabh Parivar has the ability to recognise these signs of Devi-Jiva.

Now the next question I raised regarding the Devi Jiva, this was to also look at who and how can a devi-Jiva be recognised and I have posted the teeka of Purshottam ji, which explains it quite specifically.

Nirupaji, you have asked:

Quote:
Following questions come to mind:-

(1) why ONLY certain Pushti soul’s sins are automatically repented and not for ALL Pushti souls, after taking Brahmasambandh?

(2) Does it mean that those Pushti souls whose sins are automatically repented achieve Param Falam easily and quickly compare to the souls whose sins are not automatically repented (after doing Thakorji’s seva and following Pushti sidhant)?


The Pushti-Jiva who after initiated into Pushtimarg, have achieved and attained with the principles of Pushtimarg adhered by Shree Vallabh. So these Adhikari Jiva is automatically enticed into full aspect of the Seva-Marg and whilst some Jiva, after Diksha, do not do much, hence these Jiva do not give enough chance to the sins to repent. They are still in the process of struggle and have not attained the level needed to equate the Param Falam ( I consider myself one of these category, hope to be a good vaishnav one day.)

It is natural that a Jive who repents the sins and does follow the Marg with principles laid down per Shree Vallabh and use bhava and also becomes ardent follower, will reach that ultimate attribution promised in Pushtimarg. This all boils down to degree of Jive's and the enthusiasm they show in the Marg and its principles.
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gopal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Jai ShriGokulesh
-
Today is 28-04-2006 and in the daily gujarati newspaper of Gujarat Samachar, Baroda edition in the column of Dharma Labh, today the adveertisement is given that those who want brahmasambandh diksha, pujya....... is biraajman in baroda till 30th and they can come for brahmasambandh diksha at ...... haveli.

Pushtidasji, i do agree that vallabhkul balak do recognise that who is daivi jeev or not, but if it is so then why the adhikaari's give such types of adverts......

Sahaja Desh Kalottha, Lok Ved nirutpita.,............
these r the 5 doshs, which r been said by shrimahaprabhuji, but for a pushtijeev, if the jeev does bhakti, then these doshs will not be obstacles in his marga. They r not demolished, but they will even not affect.
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Sunita Punjabi
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

Thankyou Pushtidasji.

Everyone please continue learning a lot.
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gopal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Jai ShriGokulesh

If vaisshnavas can understand the gujarati or hindi language, do take a look on below link,

http://www.pushtikul.com/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=1550&FORUM_ID=1&CAT_ID=7&Forum_Title=%3Cb%3EDisscuss+it+all%2E+%3C%2Fb%3E&Topic_Title=Bramhasambandh
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Pushtidas
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Jai Shree Gokulesh

Thank you Gopal bhai, this is what you said in the previous posting:

Quote:
Pushtidasji, i do agree that Vallabhkul balak do recognise that who is daivi jeev or not, but if it is so then why the adhikaari's give such types of adverts......

Sahaja Desh Kalottha, Lok Ved nirutpita.,............
these r the 5 doshs, which r been said by shrimahaprabhuji, but for a pushtijeev, if the jeev does bhakti, then these doshs will not be obstacles in his marga. They r not demolished, but they will even not affect.


Gopal bhai, I cannot comment on the Balak's personal views and how Aapshree runs the Haveli. It is also really not appropriate to comment on individual cases without complete facts and inside story, events and thoughts.

But in General, I can only say that these action do not constitute Pushtimarg's system and principles, then in my person dealings with the Marg and Shree Vallabh Parivar, I have observed the different thinking and attitude on various principles. These interpretations vary from Balak to Balak. But it is the vaishnav who has to distinguish these varieties of thoughts and hence we see various adaptation of seva from Gadi to Gadi.

So in this case I am not sure that Haveli Adhikariji is acting on his own accord or not. I think you should personally have meeting with the advertising personality, Adhikariji (Haveli Manager=Adhikariji) and Shree Vallabhkul's Balak.

Yes I have understood what you are saying quoting the sloka of five Dosh which after Diksha does not hinder that Jive in Pushtimarg. Yes, that is true, but, have you caste your mind and thought about many Jive after having Brahmasambandh, do not accept the Marg in its entirety. Why some souls can indulge in Pushtimarg and some can't? Both of these categories had the same Brahmasambandh mantra? Please consider the varta of Shree Girdharlalji; he had to give three times Brahmasambandh Diksha to a vaishnav because Shree Gusainji said that the Diksha was not valid. Why?

If you could grasp the answers to all these questions, then, perhaps we will be able to see the whole scenario of Diksha Mantra and do's and don'ts of these unusual actions.

I re-iterate, that I don't want to comment on individual case, and as a vaishnav, my duty is not to question who does what but follow the principles of the Marg and with grace of God, might just become a worthy vaishnav.
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shreekant22
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Very well said Pushtidasji.
A vaishnavs duty is to follow the marg. Not to preach the marg.
The entire Vallabhkul is available to do that.

Each evey balak has got different interpretations and points of view to different aspects of the marg, and when one personally interacts with them, their is great amount of justification in why and for what each one is doing so.

While it is really good and great to highlight the Pushtisiddhants. What is important is to personally follow them, rather than criticise others.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Yes Shreekantji you are right in saying that it is a vaishnavs duty to follow the Path of Grace and one of the key duties is to do satsang with fellow vaishnavs. So I don’t see doing satsang as preaching. Everything put in Tibari is referenced back to the book’s which have been written by our Jagad guru Shri Mahaprabuji, Shri Gusainji, Shri Gokulnatji, Shr Hairaiji etc etc

There was example’s of many ardent vaishnavs in the varta;s who did satsang with others as it’s a vaishnavs duty to do satsang whenever one can as that enhances bhakti. Mahaprabuji and Shri Gusainji taught a lot of disciples about the path and some vaishnavs became advanced by their association and by reading their publications they were able to impart their teachings upon others. The guru themselves used to send the newcomers to these advanced bhakta’s.

Secondly, discussing the siddhants which have been written by our lovely Jagad Guru Shree Mahaprabuji is the foundation of Pusthimarg. Mahaprabuji has started Pusthimarg off and if it wasn’t for him this path would not exist, so I personally think that it’s not good but vital to highlight the pushti-siddhants. Only once these are highlighted, one can try and follow it to the best of their ability.

Everyone is trying to learn about the siddhants so one can follow and try and be a good vaishnav. I have not come across any vaishnav on this site that has criticised others on the contrary there has been support, encouragement, love and praises. Vaishnavs on this site are absolutely amazing and I am proud to be member of Krishnaseva.

Please correct me if im wrong

JSK
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna,

Very well said Sitalji, you are absolutely right. I completely agree and would like to add that it is the duty of more experienced Vaishnavs to impart their valuable and priceless knowledge to others that do not know and would like to understand Pushtimarg to enhance their bhakti. Many devi jivs were attracted into Pushtimarg through the sang of other Vaishnavs, who then encouraged them to get their Brahmsambandh. Yet not everybody has easy access to Vallabhkul na Ballaks particularly in the busy lifestyles of today and appreciate the efforts of other who share their understandings.

Sitalji you are also right that we do not critisize each other on Krishna Seva, but i personally feel that critisisms can help us improve ourselves otherwise how do we know where we went wrong? I would appreciate critisisms particularly from bhavik Vaishnavs.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Thank you Shreekantji, Sitalji and Trushnaji; I agree that in KS.com we are gathered to do satsang and not criticise anyone. I believe that Pushtimarg is not for everyone and will not entice every soul on earth to join it. We did see why Mahaprabhuji was asked to grace us with Pushtimarg and we also have inclination of why Shree Vallabh was worried about the sins of souls and this entailed the worthiness of the Jiva to establish that relation with Brahm.

From His worries, He was graced by Shree Gokulchandramaji and parted with the initiation mantra which we all know as Brahmasambandh. If we caste our mind on this event, one thing is very clear that Thakorji really wanted all his Devi-Jives to return to Him and he was prepared to except all the sins and worthiness of the soul, provided Shree Vallabh (and his Parivaar) gave them Gadiya Mantra.

So how Devi-Jiva are recognised?

Shree Thakorji wanted to part with Pushtimarg Param Falam, so that He could bestow His grace on the Jiva. It sounds simple but whether this grace is really bestowed on a Jiva or not, is rather difficult to tell. The grace is apratiaksha (cannot be seen), that means we cannot tell that Lord has really bestowed His grace on that Jiva. So how can one tell that this is the Devi-Jiva?

Shree Hariraiji Prabhucharan in His Vivachan explains this:

One can only deduce Krupa (Grace) on a Jive by looking at the Jiva after he has been initiated in Pushtimarg, that is to say that, when a Jive indulges in Seva and Smaran as per Pushti Principles (Sidhant) and also offered a total surrender in Lord, then this Jiva is a Devi Jiva and Krishna has bestowed His grace upon this Jiva. It is the Grace of Thakorji a Devi-Jiva can indulge in Pushtimarg, without Him that Jiva will be still lost in mayhem of this materialistic world. As long as the favour of great devotional beings prevails, the Blessed Thakorji will shower His mercy. Without His grace it is impossible to enter Pushtimarg.

Shree Gusainji also gives agiya (points out his views):

Vicharayva sada deyam krushna naam visheshtaha |
Avichari tadanen svayam data vinshyati ||


One should really put more thoughts before initiating anyone as disciples (sevak). One must think carefully before parting with the Diksha Mantra, especially when parting with Krishna's naam (name). If this Diksha is bestowed on a wrong soul, then Guru has to suffer and it could destroy the Guru.

So Vaishnavs, it is our duty that we should comply with our Guru's Diksha Mantra and follow with sidhant. Criticising each other does not make us sidhant vadi nor does this constitute harmony in satsang. I am sure so far no one has criticised anyone, and what ever is being said, is said in the name of knowledge, curiosity and some time misconceptions. This is a satsang Tibari and not a preaching ground. But, it is a duty of a vaishnav to address and queries raised in the satsang, and if one sees a criticism in the satsang, and then it is to be fully addressed to suppress the misunderstandings.

We have a duty and that is to follow the Path of Grace per sidhant and also it is our duty to look out for non sidhant followers, and we should politely steer away. There are times when Lord's name is marred, used to one's ulterior motive and many a time the Krishna's name is "sold".

In Brahmvaivarta Puran, the Pruthvi (Earth) went to see Brahmaji and complained about earthlings (souls) were selling Mangal kari Krishna naam, and due to this deed I (the earth) cannot sustain the weight.

Even Lord Krishna said to Nandbaba:

Anyone who sells my name to acquire material things will never be able to remember me at his/her dying bed. He/she will not get liberation through recarnation and will continue being slave of material world.

So let us be a good vaishnav and do satsang, and let us not reprimand, get angry or even criticise anyone in the Satsang Tibari. I am sure Shreekantji has his reasons for putting his thoughts in the Tibari. I have all the respect for Shreekantji and have had few encounters with his association and have learned a lot from this ardent vaishnav. Please continue with the satsang.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

Clarification:
Let me first and foremost clarify that by criticism, I did not mean that what was being mentioned here in the satsang hall, by my Vaishnav freinds.

By criticism, I meant the pointing out of certain real happenings, and to mention them to be wrong, without actually knowing/mentioning the facts.

However, May be I am wrong in presenting my views on such issues, with my limited knowledge about the marg and the siddhants of the Marg.

My apologies to one and all.
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