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Partatva

 
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Pushtidas
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject: Partatva Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

In this world we have many different religions and every one has some element as common and many differ from some of the understanding of the principles. Not only the principle, but the name of the God is also various and that variety depicts different surrendership and the worship.

Fortunately all the religious body agree that there is that supernatural element, an element that governs us all, and that element is God. In Hinduism we have gone a step further and catogerised "God" with his existance and experience shown by miracles, games and also the way He bestows the grace. This different categories of God is known as Partatva. The followings are the categories of Partatva:
    1. Brahm
    2. Parmatma
    3. Bhagvan
    4. Krushna
    5. Avatars


Can you explain the above categories?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JSK,
A very mindful topic! Firstly It is important to state that in Pushtimarg we agree that Brahm, Parmatma, Bhagvan and Krushna are all but one. Unlike ideologies of Demi Gods who are FROM one(the creator Brahm) but are not Brahm. This would include other religious head figures. I will attempt an explanation of Brahm.

Brahm is the impersonal unknown enity, which is the absolute and the sole creator of all. It is from Brahm or rather Surya Narayan (a SUN like entity) that all stems out from. In other words THAKORJI/GOD! It is important to stress that our relationship with Brahm is via the personification of Krsna. As Krsna Himself is God!

Please feel free to amend any mistaken thoughts. Will wait for more Vaishnavs to add their thoughs and explanations.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai jai shri gokulesh

Pustidasji, Thanx for the beautiful topic i guess i will get to learn a lot.. Palnaji that was a good start...

Brahma is "Satchidanand" i.e. Sat, Chit, Anand - meaning existence, consciousness and bliss. Brahma is pure Bliss (Poorna Anand) and it has its own form. All the Devas (celestial beings) worshipped by us are different manifestations and aspects of the same supreme Brahma. Brahma is truth. Atma or Jiva is a tiny part of this Brahma element and is separated from Brahma the way sparks are separated from blazing fire. Atma is a tiny part of Parmatma and not Parmatma Himself because once it enters the Jagat it surrounds itself with ego and illusion in the form of I-ness and My-ness. It therefore becomes imperfect by losing its Anand or Bliss. Atma is Sat and Chit, but since it is not Anand, it is not God. And Bliss can be achieved only by pure devotion towards Brahma.

Not only Brahma is Niraakaar (Without form), but also Saakaar (with form), and qualified or "Sandharmak". But the qualities and the form are neither worldly nor illusionary, and are "Para" i.e. above the state of three gunas (Sattva, Rajas, Tamas) ie., Brahma is Alaukik and Aprakrut. Also at Shri sarvottamji the first line is "Prakrut dharmanashraya Aprakrut nikhil dharmarupamiti"... Brahma is the cause and means of Jagat (the Universe), so Jagat is truth in itself.

That Brahma is a combination of opposite Vedas on one hand says that Brahma is without qualities (Nirgun) and formless (Nirakaar) while on the other hand Vedas also that it is qualified (Sagun) and has various forms (Sakaar) and accept only half truth which would mean Vedas are self contradictory and since Vedas are the breath of God, they cannot be so. Therefore we have to accept that Brahma is "Viruddha Dharmashrayee" or a perfect combination of opposites.

Please feel free to correct...
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krushna Pyara Vaishnavs.

Excellent topic, Pusthidasji has discussed this in satsang so will try and attempt it Embarassed Please do correct any mistakes and feel free to elaborate

3 TATVA

BRAHM
PAR BRAHM
AKSHAR BRAHM


As Palnaji mentioned previously in her posting, Brahm is the impersonal unknown enity and Krushna is his duplicate in a personification form. Brahm created the 16-horse power krushna and brought his orginal power within Krishna. Krushna is Purnapurshottam who is the absolute Nirgun swaroop (sampurnam)! One has to be very careful and not compare this to atma nirgun. Thatís why Krushna is called Brahm nirgun who is the top-most entity. The one who is higher than nirgun is called Brahm

What distinguishes Nirgun atma from Brahm?

The 6 extra ordinary elements that exist are

1. Aishwarya
2. Virya
3. Shri
4. Yash
5. Gnan
6. Vairagya

Dharmi (The original entity, God)


We have read in Pusthidasjiís posting on gopigeet about these elements, and how Thakorji triggered these tatva spiritually in a soul to enable them to reach closer to Thakorji. The souls that contain all of the first six are called nirgun; conversely only god encompasses all 6 elements plus Dharmi. Constituent of Dharmi segregates atma from Brahm, He is the Adhik swaroop (topmost entity) hence also called Paramatma

As Unnatiji has described in her posting; atma comeís from Paramatma. Dharmi photo copied the Nirgun souls from him and let them photo copy the other souls, according to the game he wanted to play and enjoy. For further information, Pusthidasji has discussed how the sakhiís were created under the topic Lalitajiís pragitya.


PAR BRAHM

Par Brahm and Brahm are one Par Brahm is Krushna

When decided that He wanted to create this shrushti (Universe) a power called Akshar Brahm was formed. This element was awakened in this body, for this reason there was a temporary separation. He wanted to enjoy this universe without being directly involved.

The three elements of Akshar Brahm, which is his strength, are Sat Chit and Anand. These are named the Goon Dharma, that is the character of Askhar Brahm

Akshar Brahm is defined as: The activities to create this universe that entail creation, so the activity and the reasons of activity are known as Akshar Brahm

The connection between Akshar Brahm and Par Brahm is as follow:

Dharmi = Par Brahm

Dharm = Akshar Brahm

Dharm will always be inside Dharmi; itís like dharm is the scent of the flower. The activities of Dharmi are called dharm = KRISHNA SEVA SADA KARIYA

It is from Akshar Brahm that this universe was then shaped and all the Maryada Swaroops were created. In order to balance this Shrusti he produced Brahmaji who was given the task to create and Shivji to destroy. So in short Brahm wanted to enjoy this creation without being involved, hence Akshar Brahm was shaped to carry out the activities.

Bhagvan

The topmost entity has been given several names, in the Puran He is referred to as Bhagvan, Parmeswar, Paramatma. The Upanishad's describe him as Narayan, Par Brahm, etc, Radhaji has also given him 108 names, thus they all designate towards Shree Krushna and that he is the supreme

Reality

Thakorji states in the Bhagvad Gita: I am only one but also in everyone, I am in everything and everything is in me
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Last edited by Sital on Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:55 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Pushtidas
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna
and Jai Jai Shree Gokulesh

Wow well-done Unnatiji and Sitalji. I was bit ademant about the question. I had gut feelings that this topic might go stale because of the nature of the question. I am very proud of you both. Very well answered. Brahma is an entity where he is Perbrahma and has three tatva (elements) like Sat, Chit and anand. All this is well described by Unattiji and elaborated by Sitalji.

"Saat" means real existense. Saat also means the element that cannot be destroyed or be destructed. On the other hand Asat or Asatiya is that element which has no logic and cannot exist in a correct form. For instance asat is that, a rabit has horns, sky is a garden full of flowers and the river, instead of water is full of gold. These elements are not the logic element as they are totally segregated from saat.

There is also third angle to really think about. That is Mithiya. The Mayavadis (Believer of materialistic world) have described Mithiya as an element which has not got saat or asat in it, so we say that Mithiya is an element which do not have the quality of SAAT and ASAT. It is an element that resides between reality and non logic world. A world far apart from saat and asat.

To look at this arguments in depth, we look at what Sankracharyaji's opinion depicted under the umbrella of his group named as "MAYAVADI". The school of Mayavadis believes that Brahma is Sat. And beacuse of Maya we see Atma (soul) and Jagat (the world) as Brahma. Although Brahma is SAAT, but his reflection which is Atma and jagatthis is rflected by Maya. This reflection is known as Mithiya reflection.

If one installs number of mirrors in front of an object, then we see many reflection of that object. The object is one but he has many reflections. These rflections cannot be classified as "SAAT" objects. It is not saat because when the mirrors are removed, the object's reflections are also destroyed, and as the reflections no longer remains, then we say that this reflection is not saat.

Can this reflection be classified as "ASAT"?

No the reflection in the mirrors cannot be classified as Asat. There is nothing unusual in the reflection, it is merely a duplicate of real object and does appear as similar in all aspect of original object, but it is not real and it has not got non logic element either, hence we say that the reflections are also not asat.

Then doe it mean that these reflections are Mithia?

Now that we have established that the reflections that were mirrored in the above example, are not SAAT or ASAT. Then in that case these reflection automatically falls into the third category, and that is Mithia. So the reflection falls between SAAT and ASAT.

According to Sankracharya, the object whose reflection is mirrored is Brahma and the reflection of the object is Jiva (atma=soul). And the element (The mirrors) which depicts this mirrored reflection is known as MAYA. So we can now say:
    1. Object = Brahma
    2. Reflection = Jiva (Atma)
    3. Mirrors = Maya


When Maya's reflects over Brahma then that reflection depicts Jagat and Atma of Brahma. So according to Sankracharya Mayavad the Atma and the Jagat looks like sat but they are merely a reflection of Brahma and as Jagat and Atma gets destroyed or be destroyed, it is this arguments when forwarded, depicts that the Atma and Jagat is Mithia and hence is not SAAT or ASAT.

It was at the meetings (SABHA) of all the prominant Acharyas, Shree Mahaprabhuji debated the arguments forwarded by Mayavadis. It was at this meeting Mahaprabhuji threshed the Mahayavadis theory of SAAT, ASAAT and MAYA. This famous debate was known as "MAYAVADA NU KHANDAN".

Can anyone post the counter arguments forwarded by Shree Mahaprabhuji?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna
and
Jai Jai Shree Gokulesh

Sitalji in your posting you wrote:
Quote:
Dharm will always be inside Dharmi; itís like dharm is the scent of the flower. The activities of Dharmi are called dharm = KRISHNA SEVA SADA KARIYA


It is not very clear what you are trying to say. I think you are trying to give the difference between Dharma and Dharmi. So if we take the example quoted by you, then flower is Dharmi and the scent (aroma) (sughandha) from the flower is its Dharma.

To further elaborate on this, we can say SUN is Dharmi and sun's dharma is its sun-rays. On the same token, Shree Brahma is Dharmi and his Dharma is Bhakti. With these elements the Bhakti is infused into Bhakta to enhance the power of Dharmi, whom we know as GOD.

Please correct me if I have not understood your post.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai shree Krishna

Thanks Pusthidasji, that is what I was trying to explain Cool


JSK
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shri Krishna,

Nice going and thank you Pushtidasji for elloborating.

According to Shri Mahaprabhuji he developed the system of Shuddhavaita Vedanta explaining that

"All the mundaine phenomena are the transcendental Supreme self.

He, the Supreme Being, is the creator and He creates Himself only.

He, the Supreme Self, is the sustainer and He sustains Himself only.

He, the Supreme Lord, is the destroyer and He destroys Himself only.

Whenever, however, wherever, by or through whatever, out of whatever, for whatever, of whatever, to whatever, in the material world or conscious form or divine form, whatever happens it is all in all the LORD Himself.

The above passages are taken from Shuddhadvaita Brahmavada system of Vedanta by Shri Mahaprabhuji.

For Shri Mahaprabhuji "Krishna" is both a divine person as well as an omnificient, omnipresent, omnicient and omnipotent power so the ideal devotee has to relish Brahman as Krishna and realise Krishna as Brahman.

Shri Mahaprabhuji says "This world is to be realised as a part or a form of God but it should not be relished as God."

Shri Krishna is both transcendental and immanent too He is the pureme Being Consciousness and Bliss. He is all pervasive.

Shri Mahaprabhuji explained all by giving eg of Gold. Like a antique statue can be made of gold and so can the necklace but the value to a thief is only of gold in both while to the historian antique statue has more value.

Thus the Brahman, before being modified as the world is unknowable-indescribable "the thing as it is" in every fashion.

Shri Mahaprabhuji also considers Brahman as supra ratioanal phenomenon i.e. neither rational nor irrational one.

Understanding may differ by different philosophies as some think there is no God, others believe actions and rituals alone are God, some consider Him as "Mere Creator" while others consider Him nothing else than their ownselves these arise out of ignorence but there is some truth in every theory of different system of thought.

For Shri Mahaprabhuji Brahman is full of contradictory attributes, therefore all the contradictory theories are partially true including His own theory of Suddhavait Brahmavada.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jai Shree Krishna

There are also other arguments put forward by Mahaprabhuji to prove Mayavada philosophy to be false.

Mahaprabhuji wisely used the Mayavada philosophy to falsify itself. He initially agrees that Brahma is Saat, and by reiterating that Brahm is Saat he also confirms that what is Sat cannot be Asat/ Asatiya (false). Furthermore, establishing that if Brahm is Saat then everything produced by Brahm will also be Saat, maintaining that creation produced by Brahm is also Saat.

Saat co-notates a meaning of existence and the truth which is the reality. Mithia is proved to be wrong as Mahaprabhuji explains that the body dies but the soul never dies; the atma (soul) is simply using the body which is made up of the elements Akash (Sky), Vayu (atmosphere), Tej (light). Jal (water) and Pruthvi (earth) and these elements all recycle themselves after death and are not destroyed.

Maya shows a different world (Mayavi) world consisting of material attachment and an ongoing cycle of sukh (happiness)- dukh (unhappiness)- sukh and dukh, Mahaprabhuji disagrees that maya is a mirror showing reflection of the atma(souls) from the object/Brahma but that Maya itself is a mirror which reflects upon itself.

A glass shown as a whole will still be known as a glass if it is broken. A broken glass then merely has changed its shape. According to Mayavadi, in Mithia and Maya theory, everything is destroyed, in the counter arguments, Mahaprabhuji stated that nothing is really destroyed as when human or any "Judd" (non living) dies, its not really destroyed. Atma stays intact and the human body after death converts into five Mahabhto (as described above) this way He did Mayavadi khandan.
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